tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13376296.post114592913362761995..comments2023-05-22T04:15:04.606-04:00Comments on Old Doxoblogy: Assurance: Where Does It Fit?Jeremy Weaverhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13376296.post-1146448979159798182006-04-30T22:02:00.000-04:002006-04-30T22:02:00.000-04:00Are you then, saying that, regeneration which prec...<EM>Are you then, saying that, regeneration which precedes and produces faith MAY occur at birth or shortly after for God’s elect?</EM><BR/><BR/>No. The Gospel Call precedes Regeneration.<BR/><BR/>I agree that what you said could lead to false assurance, but most of the Presbyterians I know would not claim it to be so. As for other paedo-baptists, I don't know. Lutherans actually hold to a form of baptismal regeneration, so I don't know exactly what their position would be concerning the assurance issue and their children.Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13376296.post-1146440110554621272006-04-30T19:35:00.000-04:002006-04-30T19:35:00.000-04:00Jeremy,Forget my question about the porn thing; I’...Jeremy,<BR/>Forget my question about the porn thing; I’m sure that would do my soul more ill than good. <BR/><BR/>Moving up to higher ground then, I think the semantics of sanctification etc. is semantics for the most part, I can now put this one to rest. I feel we are close enough on this matter. <BR/><BR/>Back to the big question: <BR/><BR/><I>Regeneration precedes faith by the amount of time that it takes the person who has been regenerated to place faith in Christ. Now realize that in my view regeneration does not only precede faith, it actually produces faith. So once a person has been regenerated it is inevitable that they will come to faith. How long does it take? I don't know. Is conviction of sin a result of regeneration? If so, then there are many who wrestled long and hard with sin before placing faith in Christ. Others place faith in Christ immediately.<BR/>My position is that I don't know.</I><BR/><BR/>Are you then, saying that, regeneration which precedes and produces faith MAY occur at birth or shortly after for God’s elect?<BR/><BR/>Is this not one reason infant rhantizm (sprinkling)? Giving comfort to the professed elect parents that their children are given the sign of the new covenant? Therefore, by means other than (sola fida) faith alone, are deemed regenerated into the family of God by that act? Later (usually 12 years of age) they go through the process of confirmation, which involved some catechism and robotic mantra<BR/><BR/><I>I believe in one God, the Father Almighty Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible: <BR/>And in one Lord Jesus Christ, <BR/>the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds;</I> and so on. <BR/><BR/>Is this not leading one to a false assurance?J. Wendellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00765506892310444078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13376296.post-1146333537295902102006-04-29T13:58:00.000-04:002006-04-29T13:58:00.000-04:00Good!Now we are dpeaking at avery good level, and ...Good!<BR/><BR/>Now we are dpeaking at avery good level, and I will have to get back to you. Duty (house work) calls.<BR/><BR/>But what about, "They're busy talking about nudity. Go visit them. It'll blow your mind how many ways they come up with to justify pornography."J. Wendellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00765506892310444078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13376296.post-1146263938486976792006-04-28T18:38:00.000-04:002006-04-28T18:38:00.000-04:00Also there is an aspect of sanctification that tak...Also there is an aspect of sanctification that takes place before regeneration. That is to say that the Spirit marks us out through His call which comes through the Gospel preaching.Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13376296.post-1146263838532108612006-04-28T18:37:00.000-04:002006-04-28T18:37:00.000-04:00Okie dokie...Sanctification.I have often heard the...Okie dokie...Sanctification.<BR/>I have often heard these three terms thrown around, Positional Sanctification, Practical Sanctification, and Perfect Sanctification.<BR/>They seem to be different words that refer to, <BR/>1) either Regeneration or Justification, <BR/>2) Sanctification, and <BR/>3) Glorification.<BR/>I think that the only distinctive that they bring to the conversation is that sanctification means 'the process of being set apart'.<BR/>Positional Sanctification, in my opinion, is a way of saying that at the beginning of salvation we were set apart for holiness in an absolute sense, in other words that we are in a position of sanctity, even though we are not yet fully sanctified.<BR/>Practical Sanctification is what is commonly referred to as Sanctification, interestingly enough. This is the process by which we are growing more and more set apart for holiness in a 'real time' sense.<BR/>Future Sanctification corresponds with Glorification.At the return of Christ we will be fully and really set apart for holiness. What is lacking now in Sanctification will be made up instantaneously.<BR/><BR/>Now to the big question..."by how much does regeneration precede conversion (faith?) in your view?"<BR/><BR/>Regeneration precedes faith by the amount of time that it takes the person who has been regenerated to place faith in Christ. Now realize that in my view regeneration does not only preced faith, it actually produces faith. So once a person has been regenerated it is inevitable that they will come to faith. How long does it take? I don't know. Is conviction of sin a result of regeneration? If so, then there are many who wrestled long and hard with sin before placing faith in Christ. Others place faith in Christ immediately.<BR/>My position is that I don't know.Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13376296.post-1146226020118741152006-04-28T08:07:00.000-04:002006-04-28T08:07:00.000-04:00Rose,I actually forgot about the question. Thanks...Rose,<BR/>I actually forgot about the question. Thanks for the reminder.<BR/>John,<BR/>We're about to open so I may not have time to answer fully, but here goes...<BR/>While I do view regeneration, conversion, justification, and adoption as simultaneous from an earthly perspective, I also believe that there is a definite order to them. Since I believe that regeneration precedes faith, then regeneration must also precede conversion (faith and repentance). Justification is clearly taught to be a result of faith, therefore it follows conversion. Adoption as a son is only possible if we have been clothed in Christ and His righteousness which is an aspect of justification. So adoption follows justification.<BR/>I'll talk about sanctification when I get a chance.Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13376296.post-1146193412861529892006-04-27T23:03:00.000-04:002006-04-27T23:03:00.000-04:00Jeremy,Instead of being so dejected about the conf...Jeremy,<BR/>Instead of being so dejected about the conference, why not answer J. Wendell's question?Rose~https://www.blogger.com/profile/14906854078623897422noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13376296.post-1146160519889439982006-04-27T13:55:00.000-04:002006-04-27T13:55:00.000-04:00Hi Brother,Election>-Gospel>-Regeneration>-Convers...Hi Brother,<BR/><BR/><I>Election>-Gospel>-Regeneration>-Conversion>-Justification>-<BR/>Adoption>-Sanctification>-Perseverance>-Glorification.</I><BR/><BR/>That is an interesting flow chart. I like flow charts. You broke it down rather nicely.<BR/><BR/>Here is my contention; while some of these can and are definite and separate, I don’t think all of these can be so neatly divided, and so ordered. (I am leery to enter into a discussion of “the point of contact” some feel it is a “device” to divide, others find it to be unifying.) <BR/><BR/>Election in Christ, I am good so far. <BR/><BR/>Gospel presented through the unadulterated Word of God, still good.<BR/><BR/>Now we may part ways next, but it could be semantics (I don’t think it is though). <BR/>Regeneration>-Conversion>-Justification>-Adoption>-Sanctification… why do you view this as a process? Why not view these as simultaneous. Leaving room for the process of sanctification in three ways? Sanctified at the point of conversion/regeneration/point of contact/being born again, or what some call <B>positional sanctification</B>. Sanctified, as we grow in Christ, this is commonly referred to as <B>practical sanctification</B>. Finally future sanctification when we (the saints) are confirmed in holiness at death or rapture sometime spoken of as <B>perfect sanctification</B>. I understand your overlap on this, and I can come close to saying, “Amen!”, but by how much does regeneration precede conversion (faith?) in your view?<BR/><BR/>One more question, if you will… what does this have to do with committing adultery in one’s heart? There are “Christians” trying to justify the lust industry? What a shame :(<BR/><BR/>Respectfully in Christ, <BR/>brother JohnJ. Wendellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00765506892310444078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13376296.post-1146017416250380792006-04-25T22:10:00.000-04:002006-04-25T22:10:00.000-04:00Apparently no controversy Joe. They're busy talki...Apparently no controversy Joe. They're busy talking about nudity. Go visit them. It'll blow your mind how many ways they come up with to justify pornography. <BR/>Go figure.Jeremy Weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02552780649310262425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13376296.post-1145970873207847812006-04-25T09:14:00.000-04:002006-04-25T09:14:00.000-04:00This was well done, but I smell controversy a-brew...This was well done, but I smell controversy a-brewin'<BR/><BR/>Don't you?Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09693381971064363612noreply@blogger.com